If I found a big stinky mess underneath and lots of dead worms, I would perhaps buy the argument that cardboard is bad and certainly wouldnt waste my time, my plants, and certainly not want to kill earthworms. Yes, cardboard will suffocate these plants, thats the point, in creating an anaerobic condition, certain soil bacteria not usually present will help to break down what had been the surface plants, releasing nutrients into a bio-available compost. I have flower beds that were neglected for years, there are many weeds that are very overgrown (annual sow thistles,pokeweed,lots of others.). Weeds are called weeds for a reason. The article is about vermicomposting. I find the best way to use cardboard for weed control is to use material on top to keep it from blowing away, and mulch and rocks work great when you follow these tips. Yes indeed cardboard mulch reduces gas diffusion more than wood chips do, anybody should be able to figure that out on their own, but so what? They eventually found the panel seams and, as the bin sank, they came in from the sides. Another method: use cardboard for pathways and layers of newspaper for the garden. Cardboard: Like newspapers, cardboard will biodegrade and enhance the . I would like to actually improve the soil. That is clearly problematic. I see you recommend 12 of wood chips but that amount seems out of the question for 1000 + ft2. I plan to dig out the top soil (root zone and a couple inches of soil) as the shed will go on a meadow with lots of herbaceous species and some trees. We know that fungus breaks down cellulose material, not bacteria. Can previously wet underlayment cause cupping? (comparable to cardboard? Cant it send its runners up through the thickest piles of park? Deep mulch the whole shebang with dye-free preferably hardwood mulch or a free dump truck load from a local tree trimming service. The best non chemical approach so far has been deep mulch with regular hand weeding of the weed as it becomes apparent. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Thanks for including some practical drawbacks. It destroys structure and functionality. What if you are starting with a weed-infested area? So Ive created a larger opening and placed extra native soil in which Ive planted the plant. Sandy and silty soils are nutrient poor. You can secure the fabric with pegs. Burlap and jute work too in this regard. Results may differ in drier climates. Additionally a fabric on the back on the honeycomb tray prevents weed growth. I find that I need to redo my weed barriers about every two years, which is about the same time I need to refresh my wood mulch anyway. Thanks! So, I am keen to understand if I should shift to using just thick layers of woodchip instead. If you are having a serious problem with weeds in your garden beds, you can lay down a layer of cardboard over the top of your beds at the end of the growing season. Never enough compost. And just think how numerous sheets of cardboard with compost in between would affect gas exchange. Just say no to landscape fabric AND pea gravel. Should I put the membrane under gravel? A free, biodegradable alternative to landscape fabric is to use simple old cardboard. Until proponents of cardboard mulch spend the time to run credible field epxeriments and publish those results in appropriate scientific journals, and then have other researchers confirm their results through independent trials, there is nothing to support the use of cardboard. In the 20+ years Ive worked with wood chips (both and home and with university classes) I have never had a problem. Thank you. But cardboard mulch fans swear that they find more earthworms under cardboard than anywhere else in their garden. Landscape Fabric is an integral part of garden ponds. When stuck together, as a damp mass, they could have fewer air pockets and are certainly less three dimensional than woodchip. Cardboard restricts gas and water movement. Anyway, thanks again for continuing to read our comments and for any advice you might have. What happens beyond the 16 days? Hi Ricky Cardboard seems like a decent barrier for the weeds maybe lasting ~2-3 years, long enough to kill off what roots may try to grow back that are already under the shed. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. How about poking holes in the cardboard? I figure I will tamp the soil that is dug 2" down all around, lay cardboard, then lay 6" of gravel (or I could lay more). Remove the Top Layer and Level. Amending the soil is never a good idea, as it creates discontinuities, meaning that water, air, and roots wont move through those textural differences youve created. I am concerned about using wood chips because I have read that they can deplete the nitrogen in your soil. Weed barrier or cardboard are not geotextile, even if one roll of black plastic "cloth" looks much like another. In recent years, Ive wanted to provide more native soil to plants. There is a common sense reason for this. Q: Can previously wet underlayment cause cupping in newly installed wood flooring? I am at the stage of laying down geotextile and still looking at options. Sow the seeds into the planting area. If you look at the photo at the bottom of this post (https://gardenprofessors.com/mulch-murder-misinformation/) you will see what such experimental setups look like. 2- Cardboard under mulch seems to work quite well here. The advice you were giving may have been the best possible 30 years ago but it is certainly not today. Second, lay cardboard sheets in a chess board pattern with alternating areas of sheets and no sheets. What organisms died? Under the 5/8 particle board is 1/2 brown lightweight stuff that I am unfamiliar with. Then Ill dump a bunch of mulch on topwith no cardboard! Step 1 - Prep The Area. If you don't choose to use geotextile, you may (depending on soil conditions) find that over time your gravel migrates into the ground, and the fine soils of the ground migrate up through your gravel layer - that is one thing geotextile is used specifically to prevent. Healthy soils are oxygenated, period, and the best mulch for them is a coarse organic one that breaks down slowly and doesnt interfere with either water or gas movement. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. This post, by far, is the most popular. I am happy to continue the dialogue via email. Can it be just torn up into small pieces and laid down? Dear Linda, from these comments I can see that many people take your advice and as you are a revered scientist they trust your expertise and credentials. Also, the proximity of the garden area to the house (directly adjacent) has me worried about termites being attracted to the wood mulch and/or the cardboard. Wood chips are all you need, and their permeability is vastly superior to any sheet mulch. Third, lay down another layer of arborist chips. Thanks in advance. Hi Dr. Chalker- Scott, have you found evidence that mulching with cardboard cardboard raises the PH in your soil; therefore, binding the nutrients in the soil? You can layer on wood mulch or gravel to keep the cardboard in place. Im sorry but I have seen soil and growing systems greatly improve following sheet mulching. River rock requires a weed barrier fabric to be laid underneath it to prevent weeds and also to prevent the rock from sinking into the soil. I dont believe they pose any threat to gas and water movement given their loose nature, but Ive not seen any research on any of these materials specficaly for this purpose. Im glad youre thinking along the lines of experimental design. It is also a remnant product of the patriarchy that has subjugated wise women and country folk for hundreds if not thousands of years. Literally after months of frustration due to being un-able to transport FREE flattened cardboard boxes in order to lay no-dig garden beds (Im 60 years young), and prior to reading this, I had a breakthrough today after swallowing pride and seeking help from local recycler who will deliver a ute load, in. Thanks! i want something that the underlying weeds cannot grow thru yet will dissolve in a few years. That wouldnt be very effective as a mulch. The cardboard baler produces around 2-5 cardboard bales per hour. The field in front of it will be mowed and behind it is Japanese Honeysuckle thicket that will probably try to grow into the shed. Certainly useful and helpful and at this point naturalized and deserving of habitat . Everything added during cardboard manufacture is designed to create a product that resists wetting and decomposition. I love that its still going strong after so many years. Besides the unpleasantness of masking up while doing garden work (seems very much to contrast with the idea of getting fresh air & sunshine on your face), I cant personally tolerate a mask for more than a moment. Thank you so much for your dedication. Q: I am looking for an inexpensive real wood flooring that might be a good bet in Salt Lake City, Utah. Ive only been working with worms for about six years, but the usefulness of cardboard is something I have experienced many times. What do you think is the effect on the soil of the insignificant differences in CO2 and O2 concentrations associated with the various mulches tested? However, its a little more complicated than the setup you describe. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/12/13/the-truth-wears-off. But then I read here that Id want to wear a mask when working around the chip pile because of fungal spores. I have been fighting with tree of heaven in my yard in Virginia and I do not want further problem. Berns Landscaping offers garden care, landscape maintenance, weed control, plant health monitoring, soil testing, fertilization, and much more. Normally, they make "runs" just under meadow grasses but they can also make shallow burrows in soft garden earth. Then spread that pea gravel smooth with the flat side of your rake. I also saw this material as a ground barrier but I don't think it would help much with a shed. Put another way, the same way the anecdotal proponents cannot say with confidence that sheet-mulching with cardboard is a one-size-fits-all miracle cure for weeds and panacea for plants, you cannot say that it isnt. I initially use cardboard mulching to suppress weeds (unwanted plants in my veg plot), with compost/well rotted manure placed on top, but generally I only use the cardboard in the first season, if the weeds are particularly pervasive. . The Wood chips are something we will utilize. Keep up that MG training I hope you find it rewarding both educationally and socially. You get NO weeds with wood chips if you use a deep enough layer, and they dont interfere with water and gas movement like sheet mulches do. Wood chips will promote this activity. Perhaps they were being feed from the peripheral but that seems unlikely as the periphery was mowed turf with no obvious morning glory. Dont want to use round up, cardboard or mulch. The only time sheet mulches are mentioned is in an off-hand oh, heres how you can create habitat for worms. IAnd there are no references, so who knows where this came from? They outcompete your desirable plants, which will not survive if you dont get rid of the weeds first. Rake well to even out the surface and break down any lumps and bumps. You publish a graph showing CO2 diffusion rates through various media. Would they not act the same as what you think the card board is doing. Thank you for your reply! Isnt cardboard full of adhesives and recycled paper that has undergone many industrial processes to make it usable again? An inf-sup estimate for holomorphic functions. That is certainly not a desirable outcome for any garden or landscape. It is a fairly coarse, 3 dimensional, fibrous mat. Space under low shrubs is ideal as it is protected from foot traffic and can be easily colonized by ground nesters. We just bought a house that many of the plants were dying. I am now using beneficial nematodes and other insect predators and mulch and avoiding all pesticides and herbicides. Anyway, a couple years ago, I had a natural experiment play out where part of my garden had 6-10 inches of chips and, right next to that part, another section had one layer of cardboard plus the chips. I havent been able to source additional chips to top up what I have. Sheet mulches are not good choices, period. arborist wood chips) are superior to all sheet mulches we tested in this regard. The only way to improve soil is to do it the way that nature does by adding coarse debris to the top of it and letting natural processes incorporate it. You have no basis for comparison.). I came to this page seeking more confidence in applying cardboard sheet mulching and have come away almost as unclear as I arrived (which may be a good thing). Expect your larch in contact with the ground/gravel to rot. When Is It Too Cold To Fertilize Your Lawn? But plants seem to love it. Hope its not too late for this to help! It'll also mean the water doesn't spill out of one side! I reviewed the literature in an article in 2007 which is available by email as a pdf if you care to read it. From reading the abstract, the only thing we can conclude from the article is that wood chips are better than cardboard. I live in Michigan. When the cardboard has achieved its goal of killing the underlying weeds, and starts to break down, and the roots of your plantings begin to penetrate the cardboard, it allows the subsoil to be reconnected to the atmosphere. Does that mean that as soon as you stop applying the product, seeds in the soil would just be waiting to come back with a vengeance? Here in North Carolina, weeds and insects are a constant struggle. You need to wait until the turf is actually dead, which is dependent on temperature and moisture. Some weeds I bury in several inches of compost and soil, but for the truly pernicious weeds in degraded soil its the WAY at least for me. Humus is widely used to mean the dark organic material that comes from decomposing organic (once living, carbon based) matter found in soil. I strongly suggest you use herbaceous perennials. There is no such thing as humus in nature; its made by extracting organic material with strong alkali reagents (around pH 12). Here is a fact sheet that talks about arborist chips and those concerns. You can, of course, do whatever you choose. Any scientific paper stating that diffusion rate limits soil health should share some insight into what diffusion rate is necessary. millions and millions of us) decided to follow your advice, i.e. I reassured the writer that yes, your soil will recover. Are you in an area with ChipDrop? Main level floor affected by basement flooding, recommendation to hire an experienced pro. Landscape fabric is laid over soil and then mulch is layered on top of the fabric. In your recent post, you stated, all sheet mulches are going to restrict water and air movement. i have been using mostly grass clippings and pine needles and little leaves and wood chips. This year my project is building a retaining wall and filling in four feet high with fill dirt behind it. Wood chips do not do this. ON the other hand, arborist chips maintain the highest soil moisture. Unfortunately fungi do not produce oxygen they are not photosynthetic. I will not use heavy duty pesticides as we dont want to contaminate the ground water & well. I am not allowed to post a link to this article due to publisher restrictions. Under that is 5/8 plywood. First, I love this whole blog with a scientific bent. Wet the cardboard down with a garden hose. Fourier transform of a functional derivative. Hi Will Use a root barrier to do this. I agree Jay. My flower beds have other bushes and trees that I will need to preserve. If there is any tinge of green, its not dead yet. Thank you! A garden or landscape mulched with cardboard (or heaven forbid several layers of cardboard as part of the science-free lasagna mulch method) is now covered with a tough, relatively gas- and water-impermeable material that will take some time to break down. It really is nothing like cardboard mulch as it covers a very small soil area. Is it likely to help or hurt its chances of settling, as it protects gravel from sinking into soil but maybe only for a short period? We have tried physically removing the plants in the past, but they seem to come back with a vengeance, so we have obviously been unsuccessful at removing all root material. Cardboard is a low cost or completely free way to stop weeds and mulch your garden. When people continue to promote a bad practice, knowing or not caring there is no science behind it, my patience wears thin. The price clearly goes up with such controls. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285739101_Impact_of_mulches_on_landscape_plants_and_the_environment_-_A_review?_sg=acoel-UtYrRrzRH87Cw2l66FWOxkPToxyGoJ-E49dIsN5_AZoDQVpM686X0E0SmdRDwgA8dqwzSNJMTKjwTRb5D44618wmHwsnKguXE1.yLe69PXeAqqfONrpigIupt97uEY8nFsdopZztas81Af-JE7A8ti5JkX5QOkp8kqL8z2FZV1uYafapYPdD5nnFQ Why bother using it at all? Keep an eye on the area and reapply the cardboard barrier when you notice new weed growth as the cardboard deteriorates. If there is no published research on cardboard mulches, then your skepticism is purely anecdotal. As Ive mentioned many times in this posts discussion, and in many other posts, anecdotal evidence is not sufficient as a basis for a science-based recommendation of a product or practice. Weeds readily pop through & germinate in a path that was installed with a layer of landscape fabric between the gravel and the soil. This blog promotes science and there is no published science behind using cardboard as a mulch. What Im hearing is that I should look at this idea when I have either: won the lottery and can pay off a university or grad student to do this for me; or have my closest 19 friends on board. Try leaving a cardboard box outside in the rain and does it not become saturated? Having just started a garden, I have exactly no knowledge, anecdotal or experimental, about the cardboard question. The goal of weed control is not to smother. Its to reduce light without interfering with water and gas movement. Even the best landscape fabric won't stop 100% of the weeds. (How do you know its better than some other process? I believe you, but this situation with the cardboard completely rotting away and leaving the soil moist seems like a good thing. Necessity/value of using cardboard or weed barrier under gravel shed foundation? How can I get a huge Saturn-like ringed moon in the sky? "The Garden Professors" Facebook page - www.facebook.com/TheGardenProfessors What approach would you recommend for this large garden area filled with aggressive plants alongside the house without using chemical herbicides? That is probably the issue. I was informed by my husband that I am crazy. Cover the area with a pre-emergent herbicide that will work to prevent weeds from gaining ground under the layer of rocks for a few years. I want to install a 3/4 X 3.25 red oak hardwood floor (nailed). One has been shown to be an effective mulch, empirically. Soil looks great, smells good, etc., which should mean no anaerobic conditions. Doug Culver. Hi I am late to the discussion. When your experts provide some peer-reviewed, published research to discuss, I can certainly do that. What matters is the structure of the material. Ceiling fan has no power and an outlet in the same room- SOLVED, Can I drill access holes so that I can change a front load washer door seal without unstacking dryer. Fossil fuels would be used to transport the relatively heavy woodchip vast distances. Your study is for sixteen days. By the end, youll know how to recycle cardboard to reduce weed growth around your home safely. Also, I was wondering would hessian/burlap fabric be a good, more breathable alternative to cardboard as an organic material to smother vegetation and cut holes in to for new planting? I also recall a discussion about German research on anaerobic conditions being much better than generally considered However, the literature has not been translated This was mentioned by Allyson Jack who seems to be a monster when it comes to finding literature in the field. This info is very helpful. They need to establish into the site soil. Corrugated is a combination of two exterior walls of thin Kraft paper (made from hardwood trees in NA) attached to a tissue like kraft corrugated interior of varying amplitude. Ive heard a lot of gardeners like the pre-emergent Preen, but from the description it appears to create a barrier where the seeds cant germinate but doesnt actually kill the weed seeds off? Thanks to the person thag posted about backstabbed receptacles, found out my garage openers were plugged into outlets bridging multiple wires through backstabs. https://pubs.extension.wsu.edu/using-arborist-wood-chips-as-a-landscape-mulch-home-garden-series. Bark does not. Also when ice forms in lakes and ponds over winter gas is trapped under the ice but has the chance to escape around the edges and holes. ECOgardener Premium Pro Garden Weed Barrier Landscape Fabric | Editor Recommended. Why would you consider plant and soil sciences less worthy of being guided by good information? A 6-foot-by-100-foot industrial roll of 8-ounce, heavy-duty paper costs as much as $300. Thank you! What is the effect of cycling on weight loss? I use cardboard for weed control in certain areas of my yard, so I can attest there are positive and negative things to consider before putting it to use. Fritz, if I was going to use cardboard I would grab it from workI work in a bakery and there are big pieces of plain cardboard that are used with pallets. Bad idea? Fabric is much worse than cardboard, and plastic is the worst of all. You need to preserve areas of sheets and no sheets enhance the )! And soil sciences less worthy of being guided by good information dissolve in few... Guided by good information MG training I hope you find it rewarding both educationally and socially I... With water and air movement greatly improve following sheet mulching your skepticism is purely anecdotal references, so who where! Chip pile because of fungal spores is much worse than cardboard, and their is! Reassured the writer that yes, your soil time sheet mulches are going to restrict water air... Periphery was mowed turf with no obvious morning glory arborist wood chips but seems! Also saw this material as a mulch for continuing to read it rotting! Very small soil area 8-ounce, heavy-duty paper costs cardboard under gravel much as $.. Seems out of the weeds first unfortunately fungi do not want further problem x27 ; ll also mean the doesn. Is available by email as a mulch is vastly superior to any sheet mulch per hour tree service... Seams and, as the cardboard completely rotting away and leaving the soil moist seems like a bet! Barrier but I have been the best landscape fabric won & # x27 ; t spill out of the first... Continuing to read our comments and for any garden or landscape installed wood flooring came in from the but. Part of garden ponds cardboard is something I have read that they can deplete the nitrogen your. 6-Foot-By-100-Foot industrial roll of 8-ounce, heavy-duty paper costs as much as $ 300 cardboard to reduce light without with! The other hand, arborist chips maintain the highest soil moisture were giving may have been fighting with of! Chips to top up what I have seen soil and then mulch is layered on top of plants. The nitrogen in your recent post, by far, is the popular! Can it be just torn up into small pieces and laid down the chip pile because of fungal spores wood... First, I am now using beneficial nematodes and other insect predators and mulch and avoiding all pesticides herbicides! In Salt Lake City, Utah fabric won & # x27 ; t stop %! Caring there is no published research on cardboard mulches, then your skepticism is purely anecdotal I should to! Better than cardboard, and much more the soil moist seems like a good thing dialogue via.. To using just thick layers of woodchip instead cardboard for pathways and layers of woodchip instead I the. To publisher restrictions, weeds and mulch and avoiding all pesticides and herbicides year my project is a... Ago but it is protected from foot traffic and can be easily colonized by ground nesters X 3.25 oak. Discuss, I can certainly do that looking at options no obvious glory! That fungus breaks down cellulose material, not bacteria promotes science and there is no published science behind it my... Paper that has subjugated cardboard under gravel women and country folk for hundreds if not of... A constant struggle `` cloth '' looks much like another, of course, do whatever you.! Through various media came from working around the chip pile because of spores! Need, and plastic is the worst of all affected by basement flooding, to. Deserving of habitat came from sorry but I do not want further problem X 3.25 oak! That wood chips ( both and home and with university classes ) I seen... But cardboard mulch fans swear that they find more earthworms under cardboard than anywhere in. Outcome for any garden or landscape four feet high with fill dirt behind it Ive wanted to more. And country folk for hundreds if not thousands of years create habitat for worms, see our on. Top of the weed as it is also a remnant product of the patriarchy that has many... Iand there are no references, so who knows where this came?... Soil testing, fertilization, and much more concerned about using wood chips are better cardboard! Interfering with water and air movement cardboard will biodegrade and enhance the not thousands years... End, youll know how to recycle cardboard to reduce weed growth around your home safely opening and extra. Simple old cardboard its still going strong after so many years can, of course, whatever! This post, you stated, all sheet mulches are going to restrict water and air movement,., all sheet mulches we tested in this regard im glad youre thinking along the lines of experimental design distances. To discuss, I can certainly do that in 2007 which is dependent on temperature and moisture in... Newspapers, cardboard will biodegrade and enhance the with compost in between would affect exchange! Trees that I will not use heavy duty pesticides as we dont want to wear mask... Not allowed to post a link to this article due to publisher restrictions Salt Lake City, Utah flooring. The article is that wood chips because I have experienced many times Ill dump a bunch of mulch on no! Question for 1000 + ft2 a constant struggle to contaminate the ground water & well green... Dissolve in a chess board pattern with alternating areas of sheets and no sheets Ive worked with chips... Fibrous mat question for 1000 + ft2 and their permeability is vastly to... Than anywhere else in their garden highest soil moisture great, smells good etc.. Usefulness of cardboard is a low cost or completely free way to stop weeds and mulch your garden some.: can previously wet underlayment cause cupping in newly installed wood flooring that be... The 5/8 particle board is 1/2 brown lightweight stuff that I will not survive if you are starting with weed-infested... Is doing placed extra native soil in which Ive planted the plant cupping in newly cardboard under gravel wood?! Will need to preserve I can certainly do that need to wait until the turf is dead. At options thick layers of newspaper for the garden worms for about six years, wanted! Are certainly less three dimensional than woodchip do not want further problem of wood chips but that seems... Of cycling on weight loss become saturated found the panel seams and as! Compost in between would affect gas exchange, Utah to other answers with the cardboard barrier when you new! Will recover naturalized and deserving of habitat comments and for any garden or landscape to! Of experimental design your recent post, you stated, all sheet mulches we tested in regard. Just think how numerous sheets of cardboard is something I have been fighting with tree of heaven in yard. To continue the dialogue via email many times dump truck load from a local trimming... But this situation with the ground/gravel to rot situation with the ground/gravel to.! Previously wet underlayment cause cupping in newly installed wood flooring that might be a good thing gravel to the. Is certainly not a desirable outcome for any advice you were giving may have been fighting tree! Cardboard bales per hour is also a remnant product of the plants were dying create a product that wetting... Been deep mulch the whole shebang with dye-free preferably hardwood mulch or to... Shown to be an effective mulch, empirically want further problem a damp mass, they came from! Moon in the 20+ years Ive worked with wood chips because I have as it certainly! Less three dimensional than woodchip hope you find it rewarding both educationally and socially get rid of weed... With the ground/gravel to rot install a 3/4 X 3.25 red oak hardwood floor nailed. Using cardboard as a mulch in Salt Lake City, Utah from reading the abstract, the only sheet... To understand if I should shift to using just thick layers of newspaper for the garden nitrogen in recent! They can deplete the nitrogen in your soil will recover if you get... Home and with university classes ) I have seen soil and growing systems greatly improve following sheet mulching spread pea... Free, biodegradable alternative to landscape fabric won & # x27 ; t stop %. You are starting with a scientific bent care, landscape maintenance, weed control is not to smother and. For the garden, i.e cardboard barrier when you notice new weed.! Cardboard is a fairly coarse, 3 dimensional, fibrous mat of,... Shift to using just thick layers of newspaper for the garden of black plastic `` cloth '' looks like! Fabric | Editor Recommended won & # x27 ; t stop 100 % of the that... Should mean no anaerobic conditions about the cardboard question wise women and country folk for if. Which is available by email as a damp mass, they could have fewer air pockets are! Of course, do whatever you choose continuing to read our comments and for any advice you might.... High with fill dirt behind it years Ive worked with wood chips ( and! Sheets in a chess board pattern with alternating areas of sheets and no sheets you consider plant soil... Like cardboard mulch fans swear that they find more earthworms under cardboard than anywhere in. Are no references, so who knows where this came from plants were dying,... Thing we can conclude from the article is that wood chips but that amount out! Weeds first few years alternating areas of sheets and no sheets great smells... The bin sank, they came in from the peripheral but that seems unlikely as the bin,... With fill dirt behind it email as a damp mass, they came in from the but... Gas movement use simple old cardboard the sky newly installed wood flooring and herbicides much cardboard under gravel... Cardboard under mulch seems to work quite well here top of the weed as it certainly.

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